| Mr. Bowen: Should nonacademics weigh in on academic questions, particularly as they pertain to academic freedom? ACTA obviously shows no hesitancy to weigh in. | Audio: “Should nonacademics weigh-in on academic questions...” (2:36) |
| Ms. Neal: Certainly you wouldn’t mean outside interference means the academy operates without accountability. We believe academic freedom is essential to the life of the mind, and a professor’s right to pursue freedom wherever that may lead is distinctly important. But that doesn’t mean anything goes. |
| 1 Mr. Bowen: Should Anne Neal, for example, weigh in on the scholarship by Roger Bowen in the area of Japanese politics? | 1 Mr. Bowen’s scholarly specialty is Japanese politics. His most recent book, published in 2003 by M.E. Sharpe, is called Japan’s Dysfunctional Democracy: The Liberal Democratic Party and Structural Corruption. |
| Ms. Neal: I don’t think that the American Council has ever suggested that Anne Neal or individuals outside the academy are going to be deciding what happens in the classroom. In our report, “Intellectual Diversity: Time for Action,” what we recommend is ... that it is the responsibility of the academy to operate according to professional standards. That it’s responsible for policing itself. That it is important for the academy, if it wishes to retain public credibility and public support, to be in charge of keeping its own house. |
Throughout the lunch, Mr. Bowen led the conversation and pushed Ms. Neal with pointed questions. Sometimes she responded to his inquiries, and other times she rolled her eyes and sighed. | Audio: Ms. Neal defends her group’s study, “How Many Ward Churchhills?” (7:16) |
| 2 Mr. Bowen: Well, your study on “How Many Ward Churchills?” Is that a study that you’re proud of? Do you think it was well done? Do you think it’s a valid study? Do you regret having done it? Any or all of the above? | 2 “How Many Ward Churchills?,” a 2006 report by the council, refers to the University of Colorado professor who likened victims of the World Trade Center collapse to “little Eichmanns.” For the report, the council scoured online course descriptions and compiled a list of classes it found “profoundly troubling.” The courses, says the report, are proof that Mr. Churchill is far from the only professor using “extremist rhetoric and tendentious opinions.” Many academics cried foul, saying the report is inflammatory and wildly misrepresents what’s being taught on campuses. |
| Ms. Neal: The study was reliant entirely on publicly stated course descriptions by faculty members. It simply provided for parents and taxpayers to read what it is students were reading in terms of how they would choose their courses. |
| Mr. Bowen: The problem here is you issue a challenge: It’s an exposé, and you say that. “We want to expose faculty who use words like social justice or oppression, or U.S. hegemony and on and on and on.” |
| Ms. Neal: Oh, Roger. |
| Mr. Bowen: No, that’s in your preface, go back and look at it. It’s in there. |
| Ms. Neal: I think if you look at the report and characterize it fairly it is the professors’ own words about how they describe their class. All we are doing is simply outlining the public document that’s been made available to the student on which the student decides to take the course and what it says. And we raise some questions. Many of these are promoting social activism, some are promoting sensitivity training. We simply raise these as questions: Is this education? Or is this something other than education? |
3 Mr. Bowen and Ms. Neal also argued about the significance of the AAUP’s “1915 Declaration of Principles” on academic freedom. Ms. Neal often carries a copy of the statement with her and cites it frequently. She says the statement clearly tells professors to keep their political views to themselves, and she has accused the AAUP of ignoring it. | 3 The AAUP’s 1915 statement says: “The university teacher ... should cause his students to become familiar with the best published expressions of the great historic types of doctrine” and “should, above all, remember that his business is not to provide his students with ready-made conclusions, but to train them to think for themselves.” The statement has been updated by the AAUP’s “1940 Statement of Principles on Academic Freedom and Tenure,” which is included in the organization’s Policy Documents and Reports, also known as the Redbook because of its red cover. |
| Ms. Neal: Is it on your Web site yet? |
| Mr. Bowen: Ask Johns Hopkins. |
| Ms. Neal: Ask Johns Hopkins?! |
| Mr. Bowen: It’s in the Redbook — Johns Hopkins publishes that. |
| Ms. Neal: Well, I keep looking for it, Roger, and I can never find it. |
| Mr. Bowen: I’ll be glad to get you as many copies as you’d like, Anne. |
| Ms. Neal: I just want everybody else to be able to read it. |
| Mr. Bowen: As do I. |
Though a few beads of perspiration appeared on his brow as the conversation continued, Mr. Bowen talked in a soft, calm tone. Still, he missed few opportunities to skewer Ms. Neal and suggested just how little she understands academe. Ms. Neal sat forward in her seat, punctuating Mr. Bowen’s monologues with tart observations or with one of her outsized laughs. | Audio: Mr. Bowen: “In some schools competition is keen to attract students to your class...” (8:20) |
| Mr. Bowen: Here’s another reality you’re probably unaware of: In some schools competition is keen to attract students to your class. Why? Outcome measures. Professors are oftentimes judged — |
| Ms. Neal: Laughs. |
| Mr. Bowen: Laugh, but it’s true. Are oftentimes judged by how popular they are. How popular their courses are. How many students are enrolled. And there is a kind of marketing, if you will, of courses in the academy. If you’re going to market successfully in the 21st century, you’ll likely use exciting, provocative, even arguably spicy language in order to attract students. In some fields ... they are talking about the impact of capitalism on equity in a nation. They are talking about issues of race, gender, sexual identity. They’re talking about homophobia, they’re talking about false science like President Bush’s science. |
| Ms. Neal: That sounded like a political statement to me, Roger. |
| Mr. Bowen: That is a political statement. And guess what? If I ... were teaching a course and I wanted to talk about intelligent design versus evolution, I would definitely include in my course description President Bush’s statement a couple of years ago that he believes that alongside evolution we ought to be teaching intelligent design. Why? Because one, it’s contemporary; two, the leader of our country has said this, has opined on what the curriculum should look like. I would definitely include that. |
Partway through the lunch, Ms. Neal quietly reached down to remove some 3-by-5 index cards from her purse and place them on top of the napkin on her lap. She wanted to be sure to mention all of her organization’s work. |
| 4 Ms. Neal: As you know, we undertook, through the University of Connecticut’s Center for Survey Research and Analysis, a poll of students and what was happening in the classroom. Around 49 percent of those students said that in their classroom, professors were frequently introducing material unrelated to the topic at hand. | 4 ACTA’s survey, conducted in 2004, questioned 658 undergraduates at 50 top colleges and universities. The survey asked students about their perceptions of the political climate on campus and about whether professors introduced political commentary in course lectures and material. |
| Mr. Bowen: Fifty-one percent said otherwise. |
| Ms. Neal: But nevertheless. |
| Mr. Bowen: I read the survey. |
| Ms. Neal: A third of them said that they feared for their grade if they didn’t agree with — |
| Mr. Bowen: And two-thirds said otherwise. |
| Ms. Neal: The professor. Well, let me finish. It seems to me these are rather significant figures. So our question is: When you have a significant percentage of students who are raising these concerns about the robust exchange of ideas, isn’t it important to listen to them? All we’re asking is the academy pay attention to itself and reflect upon itself as much as it asks others to reflect upon themselves. If you had 49 percent in the classroom saying there was sexual harassment going on or racial discrimination, it seems to me that’s a percentage that requires some self-reflection and some self-scrutiny. |
Mr. Bowen and Ms. Neal argued over the role that each of their organizations should play in trying to ensure that campuses make room for a variety of viewpoints. | Audio: Mr. Bowen: “You’re not part of the academy...” (11:24) |
| Mr. Bowen: With all due respect, ACTA is entitled to its opinions, but you’re not part of the academy, and to pretend that you are and serving in the role of policeman, or watchdog or whatever, is a conceit, is it not? |
| Ms. Neal: I’m not saying we’re policemen, Roger. Are you suggesting the academy is free from accountability? Certainly not. |
| Mr. Bowen: No, the accountability is decided by the standards the professoriate sets for itself. |
| Ms. Neal: And I’m just saying that’s what we want the professoriate to do. Our fear is that the piece that is missing is the obligation of the faculty to police itself and ensure that it is abiding by scholarly standards. Why not a self-study? Why not post-tenure review? Why not ensure that hiring is done according to scholarly merit and not a political litmus test? These are reasonable questions to ask of the academy. |
| Mr. Bowen: We would agree. |
| Ms. Neal: And will the AAUP be encouraging faculty members to undertake these efforts to ensure that’s the case? |
| Mr. Bowen: We’ve been doing it for a hundred years. |
| Ms. Neal: For a hundred years. |
| Mr. Bowen: With all due respect, you’re kind of a Johnny-come-lately. How long has ACTA been around in its current form? What, five or six years? |
| 5 Ms. Neal: In all fairness, Roger, we’ve seen speech codes, we’ve seen cases like K.C. Johnson, who comes up for tenure and who they essentially attempted to deny tenure because — | 5 K.C. Johnson is a widely published historian who was nearly denied tenure at the City University of New York’s Brooklyn College in 2003 after his colleagues charged that he wasn’t collegial. He ended up winning his tenure battle after he took his case public. |
| Mr. Bowen: And we defended K.C. Johnson. |
| Ms. Neal: Speaking of come lately, I don’t believe so. It was groups like the American Council of Trustees and Alumni who were there to help him when he needed it at the beginning. |
The waiter came to the table a second time, and Mr. Bowen took charge, pausing the conversation for a “quick break” to look at the menu. While considering the entrees, Ms. Neal and Mr. Bowen explored a shared personal history. |
| Mr. Bowen: You know, we grew up about 10 miles from one another. |
| Ms. Neal: I grew up in Noblesville, Indiana, and went to school in Indianapolis. ... So we both can claim a Hoosier background. |
| Mr. Bowen: Scary. And do you really go by the name Dede? |
| Ms. Neal: That’s my nickname, all right. |
| Mr. Bowen: From childhood? |
| Ms. Neal: Mm-hmm. |
| Mr. Bowen: How’d you get that? |
| Ms. Neal: My middle name is deHayden, hence the nickname. How about you — do you have any nicknames you’ll reveal to us? |
| 6 Mr. Bowen: I had a nickname. I grew up with one. I’m embarrassed to say it out loud. My parents kept thinking I was going to be this huge guy because my father was big. But my nickname. Oh no, you’ll use this against me. It’s so embarrassing. I haven’t used it since college. | 6 In a conversation with The Chronicle after lunch, Mr. Bowen reluctantly revealed that his childhood nickname was Rock. “I used to be an athlete: Football, basketball, track, and all that.” Now Mr. Bowen is a 5-foot-6, 59-year-old man who frequently makes jokes about his small stature. In an e-mail message to The Chronicle about how a reporter would recognize him, he wrote: “I’ll be the short guy with the shifty eyes.” He admits, however, that his siblings and his wife still call him Rock. |
| Ms. Neal: We stick to substance and content, Roger. We won’t use your name against you. |
Before Mr. Bowen could reveal his childhood nickname, the waiter interrupted to take their order. Ms. Neal asked for the rabbit. Mr. Bowen ordered the chicken and dumplings. Both asked for more coffee. |
| Ms. Neal: It is [the professoriate’s] professional obligation to ensure that students are introduced to divergent opinions, negative evidence if you will, as well as alternative viewpoints. And there are examples that that’s not the case. |
| Mr. Bowen: I think most faculty do that. |
| Ms. Neal: I think true to the academic form, rather than saying that’s what most faculty do, we’re simply asking you to find out. |
| Mr. Bowen: It would be an interesting study. |
| Ms. Neal: We’d like to know, and that’s all we’re asking. You should be doing a study because that’s what you say you do as part of your professional obligation. |
| 7 Mr. Bowen: If you, from one of your major funders can get us some funding, I’ll be glad to carry out a study. | 7 Mr. Bowen says the AAUP’s budget is about $6-million a year, while Ms. Neal says her organization’s is close to $1-million. |
| Ms. Neal: Oh, Roger. |
| Mr. Bowen: I’d be glad to do that. I think that’s a good study. No, really. I wish we were funded at the same level you are. |
| Ms. Neal: Oh, gosh, I think you’re funded far more. |
Mr. Bowen reached down and picked up some notes scribbled on a white legal pad. He began quizzing Ms. Neal, but she wasn’t about to cooperate. |
| Mr. Bowen: Is the university an inviolable refuge, Anne? I’m asking you a series of questions. |
| Ms. Neal: Oh, Roger. You’re going to sit there and ask me questions, and I’m not going to do it. |
| Mr. Bowen: You’re not going to do it? You’re not going to play the game? |
| Ms. Neal: You have pages and pages of questions here. |
| Mr. Bowen: And I watched you refer to your notes, and you’re saying the same things you say in your reports, and I’d like to get beyond it. |
They passed on dessert, but asked for just a bit more coffee. | Audio: Mr. Bowen: “Were you an engaged student or a passive student?” (6:37) |
| Mr. Bowen: Were you an engaged student or a passive student? |
| Ms. Neal: Was I an engaged student? |
| Mr. Bowen: Did you take on your faculty like I would expect you to? |
| Ms. Neal: Actually, I was interested in listening and reading the material and engaging when appropriate. |
| Mr. Bowen: What about political-science courses, English, some of that avant-garde type stuff? |
| Ms. Neal: I don’t know what you mean, avant-garde. |
| Mr. Bowen: Well, for a kid from Noblesville, Indiana, coming into contact with these great intellects. You know, stuff that shocks you or surprises you. |
| 8 Ms. Neal: I always find it so interesting that your colleague Michael Bérubé talks about shocking these students and bringing them new and controversial ideas. It’s frequently put in the context of conservative students. What about the ones who agree with the professor, do they never get challenged? Do they never get to hear other viewpoints, divergent views, alternative information? I worry about them. Aren’t they supposed to be challenged as well? | 8 Michael Bérubé, a professor of English at Pennsylvania State University’s main campus, is a well-known liberal commentator. He has called Ms. Neal “a serious and substantial opponent of academic freedom.” |
As the lunch wound to a close, Mr. Bowen wondered aloud whether the two had come to any agreements. Had they found common ground? | Audio: The two finally agree on something. (2:29) |
| 9 Mr. Bowen: I think we are in agreement on a lot of things. But I don’t know. I think there are differences that we might not be able to transcend. But again, and I don’t intend this to be a slam, but you’ve never taught in a classroom. | 9 Before serving as president of the State University of New York at New Paltz from 1996 to 2001, Mr. Bowen was a professor of government at Colby College for 14 years. |
| Ms. Neal: Oh, you keep saying that, Roger. |
| Mr. Bowen: But it’s true. |
| Ms. Neal: Again, this concept that somehow you have to be a professor to understand a professor. |
| Mr. Bowen: Faculty are generally a kind of different breed. They do self-select. Why go into the academy? It pays lousy, the hours are long. Why they go into it generally in my judgment is the freedom. You do have time to sit and reflect and you can put your thoughts into writing. You get a chance to stay young because you’re constantly interacting with 18- to 22-year-olds. That’s why I like being a faculty member. I don’t know your life, so I can’t presume to speak for it. But I do know the professoriate, and I think that kind of personality, temperament, and life experience is different from what you have. I don’t mean that as a criticism. |
| Ms. Neal: What’s your point? |
Ms. Neal and Mr. Bowen had met several times before sitting down to lunch. She invited him to her organization’s 2005 annual meeting, and Mr. Bowen then invited her to the AAUP’s last June. Since then, they have been invited by various organizations to debate each other. |
| Mr. Bowen: I’m just saying, ACTA does not have a lot of credibility. |
| 10 Ms. Neal: That’s your judgment. We were very pleased to have folks like Benno Schmidt endorse the “Intellectual Diversity: Time for Action” report. | 10 Benno C. Schmidt Jr., is a former president of Yale University and heads the Board of Trustees of CUNY. In a press release ACTA sent out in December 2005 on its report called “Intellectual Diversity,” it quoted Mr. Schmidt as saying: “ACTA deserves great credit for highlighting the critical issues of intellectual diversity and pluralism in American colleges and universities, and for doing so in a way that scrupulously safeguards academic freedom.” |
| Mr. Bowen: I can list lots of people who keep ACTA at arm’s distance. There’s even debate within our circles: Should I sit down and have this discussion with you? Doesn’t that elevate ACTA to an importance it doesn’t really have in the academy? My view is this: I think it’s important to sit down with people with whom you disagree ... and have an honest conversation. I hope that we can continue to have a conversation. I’ll say that to a Democrat and a Republican. I’ll say it to a radical and a conservative. I’ll say it to a faculty member and a student. And I certainly say it to ACTA. I think the conversation itself has value, even though it’s sometimes uncomfortable. |
| Ms. Neal: I agree. |
| Mr. Bowen: I think that’s a natural conclusion. I have to go the bathroom. |
