Biden Camp Defends Its Record
James Kvaal, who served as undersecretary of education, reflects on a the Biden’s biggest swings and misses.

In this episode
On the campaign trail, President Trump promised to do away with the U.S. Department of Education, leaning on a Republican mantra that the federal government meddles too much in decisions that are better left to state officials. But a very different philosophy prevailed in Washington during the presidency of Joe Biden, who embraced student-debt relief as a key priority and leaned on the education department to execute a bold — if not always successful — agenda. In an exit interview with
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In this episode
On the campaign trail, President Trump promised to do away with the U.S. Department of Education, leaning on a Republican mantra that the federal government meddles too much in decisions that are better left to state officials. But a very different philosophy prevailed in Washington during the presidency of Joe Biden, who embraced student-debt relief as a key priority and leaned on the education department to execute a bold — if not always successful — agenda. In an exit interview with The Chronicle, the Biden administration’s under secretary of education, James Kvaal, reflects on the department’s work, its failures, and the future of Democratic higher-ed policy.
- Closing the Department of Education? (4:16 - 7:25)
- Biden and student-debt relief (7:25 - 11:14)
- Is debt relief dead? (11:17 - 14:20)
- FAFSA failure (14:55 - 22:45)
- Public confidence in higher ed (22:46 - 23:56)
- Abandoning college for all? (23:56 - 26:07)
- Culture wars, discrimination, critiques of higher ed (26:08 - 31:32)
Related Reading:
- Biden’s Debt-Cancellation Plan Draws Praise and Skepticism
- $189 Billion in Student-Loan Forgiveness (The Washington Post)
- What the FAFSA Just Happened? (College Matters from The Chronicle)
Guest: James Kvaal, former under secretary of education
Transcript
This transcript was produced using a speech-recognition software. It was reviewed by production staff, but may contain errors. Please email us at collegematters@chronicle.com if you have any questions.
Jack Stripling This is College Matters from the Chronicle.
James Kvaal You know, I think it is incumbent on higher education to listen to some of those critiques, and to think about whether there are aspects of those critiques that have merit, and to think about ways that they can get outside their bubbles, and make a case for what they do, not just immediately on campus, but across their communities.
Jack Stripling Trashing the U.S. Department of Education is back in style again. President Donald Trump has vowed to kill off the agency, reviving a Republican mantra that the feds meddle too much in decisions about education and that the states ought to be calling most of the shots. But for the past four years, a very different philosophy prevailed in Washington. Joe Biden’s presidency was marked by an animating idea that the federal government had a vital role to play in helping protect students, particularly when it came to higher education. In practice, though, that philosophy produced uneven results. The administration wiped out more than $189 billion in student debt for 5.3 million people. But its most ambitious plans for loan forgiveness were blocked by courts and mired in litigation. On the financial aid front, the government’s efforts to make students’ lives easier had the opposite effect. The rollout of a new federal form, which is crucial for students to access many scholarships and loans, was a glitch-filled debacle. On top of all that, polls show that a lot of Americans today are questioning whether going to college is even worth it anymore. For four years, the Biden administration adopted what feels now like a politically radical notion that Washington’s big education bureaucracy isn’t a monster to be feared; it’s a force for good to be embraced. But how should Americans feel about that idea today? And what does it mean to have a president who rejects it so completely? I spoke about all of this recently with James Kvaal, who served as undersecretary of education in the Biden administration. This interview took place in December, before Donald Trump took office, and before the Biden administration’s final round of student loan forgiveness. Kvaal was a key player for the past four years in the Education Department, where he reported to then-Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona. Anyone who follows higher ed policy will be familiar with Kvaal, who previously worked in the White House under Presidents Barack Obama and Bill Clinton. Undersecretary James Kvaal, welcome to the show.
James Kvaal [00:02:26] Thank you, Jack. Thanks for having me.
Jack Stripling [00:02:28] Well, look, I appreciate you coming on to talk a little bit about your time in the Biden administration, which is at the time of this recording coming to a close. How are you feeling about that?
James Kvaal Well, uh bittersweet. You know, I am proud of what we accomplished. But at the same time, not everything we hoped to do is done. You know, I think that’s part of public service. Barack Obama said it was a relay race, and we’re ready to hand the baton to the next team.
Jack Stripling You were in a key role in the Biden administration’s Education Department over this past four years. And this was a period in which the federal government, I think it’s fair to say, was particularly active in higher education. We saw that during the pandemic when the government pumped about $76 billion into colleges and universities. We saw it during President Biden’s efforts to cancel billions of dollars in student debt. Why do you think higher education became such an area of emphasis for the Biden administration?
James Kvaal Well, you know, higher education has really been a part of solving our country’s biggest problems, and that’s always been the case. And when you think about some of the biggest problems that President Biden was facing when he took office — you know, whether it is the pandemic, climate change, creating equal opportunity for everyone, helping our country understand each other across all of the divides in our country — you know, it’s hard to imagine that we’re going to be able to solve those problems without a big contribution in higher education. So it really remains an indispensable institution, one that, you know, that we need to invest in, and also one we need to get full potential out of.
Jack Stripling And you’ve worked previously in the White House, but in your current role, you’re stationed in the Department of Education. And we’ve been hearing a lot about the Department of Education lately, namely that incoming President Donald Trump wants to get rid of it. Tell us what the department does.
James Kvaal In the area of higher education, I think our single biggest thing that we do is operate the student financial aid program. So student loans, Pell grants, other financial aid. And we also have some programs directly supporting students and helping institutions serve students through college advising or building infrastructure to help more students succeed. And, you know, it’s hard to see how students would be better served by proposals to eliminate the department. I think if you eliminated the financial aid programs overnight, it’s hard to see how millions of students would make their tuition bills. And, you know, I think we all have a stake in helping more students go to college, graduate from college, you know, and go on and make a contribution to their communities and to the economy.
Jack Stripling I should probably add a little context here, and you can correct my numbers if I’m off. But my understanding of the department is it’s about 4,000 employees. The budget’s about $240 billion, which is about two percent of the federal budget. But when you hear conservatives describe it, it is sort of described as this behemoth that is sticking its nose where it shouldn’t and perpetuating left-wing ideas. Why do you think Republicans have been so keen on getting rid of the Department of Education, really since it began decades ago?
James Kvaal Yeah, I’m not sure. I mean, it’s a relatively new cabinet agency. It was created in the 1970s. You know, I remember leaving college and coming to work here. Senator Dole had just campaigned on a promise to eliminate the Department of Education. So it’s an old chestnut. But, you know, I think the role it plays is one that is really in the best interest of students and families. And I think it is hard to see a viable political path to rolling back the Department of Education’s existence.
Jack Stripling And you’re a political appointee, but most of the people who work in this department are career employees. And I’ve got to think there’s got to be some nervousness over there right now. How would you describe the mood?
James Kvaal Well, look, I think it’s a challenge for morale when potential leadership think that maybe your organization shouldn’t exist. You know, but at the same time, as you said, people have been talking about eliminating this agency, you know, ever since it was created almost 50 years ago. You know, it would require legislation. It would require committee chairmen to give up their jurisdictions. It raises all kinds of questions about what you do about outstanding student loans and the other commitments the department has made. So it doesn’t honestly keep me up at night, the idea that the Department of Education is going to be erased entirely.
Jack Stripling You don’t see this as a realistic thing. You see this as sort of a political boogeyman?
James Kvaal It seems like more of a talking point than a well specified serious proposal. Yeah.
Jack Stripling One of the arguments for having an Education Department is that it allows you to do big things. And one of the big things the Biden administration did related to student debt. Why is getting rid of student debt a good idea? Why should this be a presidential priority?
James Kvaal Well, what I’d say is our higher education system has really grown increasingly dependent on student loans over time. And for some people, a loan is a, is a relatively small price to pay for their education and the opportunities it creates. I know that was true for me. But we also see more and more people really struggling with their loans as people are borrowing more and the economy is changing. And prior to the student loan payment pause, we had a million people a year defaulting on their loans. There are troubling racial disparities. And it’s gotten to the point where it is a barrier for people buying a home, starting their own business, saving for their retirement. So it has an economic component. And it also makes it harder for people to go into a career of their choice, including public service careers. So really, we all are paying a price for what we have allowed student debt to become.
Jack Stripling And I think, I’m sure you’ve heard a lot of the arguments against this. I don’t have to reiterate them all here. There are concerns that maybe a policy like this disproportionately benefits higher income people. But I think the simplest one is the fairness question, whether it’s fair to forgive some people’s loans when other people have dutifully paid them off. How do you respond to that?
James Kvaal Again, we all have a stake in having more people go to college, graduate from college, make contributions to our country. That’s good for students, but it’s good for all of us. And on the other side, when student loans are keeping people from going from college or weighing down their ability to buy a home, start a business, save for their retirement, to go into careers like teaching or healthcare or military service, we all pay a price for it. So it’s not just a question of the 42 million Americans who have loans themselves. It’s also their families. It’s their communities, and it’s our economy as a whole that’s being held down by these debts.
Jack Stripling Did you feel like this was certainly among the largest priorities of the administration? Would you say it was the key priority for higher education?
James Kvaal Well, I think facing up to the challenges of the student debt crisis was, within the area of higher education, probably President Biden’s top priority. And, you know, I think you can see in his agenda a real strategy. You know, one-time debt relief got the most attention. It was very controversial. But there’s a, really a vision in the president’s proposals to turn the corner on our debt-financed colleges. And when you look at the changes he’s made around public service loan forgiveness, discharges for people who have disabilities who were cheated by their colleges, who have been paying their loans for decades. You know, that’s a safety net for those people who take out a loan to go to college but don’t get the individual ROI that student loans assume. He’s called for doubling Pell Grants, making community college tuition free. And, you know, I’m really gratified to see those new tuition-free programs sprouting up from Massachusetts to Maine to Minnesota, Colorado, New Mexico. And he’s called for looking at where all this unaffordable debt is coming from and holding colleges accountable and giving students better information.
Jack Stripling I’m wondering where that conversation goes now that we’re going to have a new president. The Biden administration gets credit for the debt that it took off the books. $175 billion is not chump change. But this agenda didn’t go as far as anyone had hoped. And there are, I think, legal and political reasons to wonder if any president’s going to try this again. The Supreme Court blocked President Biden’s plan to forgive $400 billion in debt. Vice President Kamala Harris was pretty quiet about loan forgiveness as a priority during her presidential run. Do you think student debt relief is dead as a major priority in the Democratic Party?
James Kvaal You know that $175 billion you mentioned, you know, that is relief that we were able to deliver under existing loan programs targeted at struggling borrowers. And, you know, often enacted on a bipartisan basis through Congress. So that is public service loan forgiveness. It is income-driven repayment. It is discharge for people with disabilities. It’s borrower defense for people who attended fraudulent colleges. And those changes we made are ongoing. So they will continue unless someone reverses them. And we can expect, you know, hundreds of thousands of borrowers to continue to receive loan forgiveness every year under the reforms that the Biden administration has put in place.
Jack Stripling But do you see — this was a big part of President Biden’s political identity I think — do you see another Democratic campaign that’s going to make this at the front and center in this way?
James Kvaal Well, you know, I don’t think these things happen on a whim. When President Biden decided to invest as much resources and political capital as he has in addressing the problems in the student loan program, he does that because he thinks there is resonance of the issue, that concern over student debt is widespread. And, you know, I can tell you, looking at the numbers, that seems very plausible. There are a lot of people out there who struggle with their student loan payments. And when I see momentum behind state tuition-free college programs; when I see states increasing their investment in public higher ed, finally catching up with where they were before the Great Recession; you know, when I see even state flagships or private universities offering free tuition programs up through the middle class and beyond; you know, that tells me that these concerns about the value of college are really quite widespread. So, you know, I don’t know specifically what policies the Trump administration will advance. I don’t know what future democratic administrations, who they will be or what their agenda will be. But I do think that there is a lot of reason for optimism that we are going to move beyond, you know, this focus on debt as the primary way we pay for higher education.
Jack Stripling Stick around. We’ll be back in a minute.
BREAK
Jack Stripling I want to talk about another issue that presented some challenges for the Education Department over the last couple of years, and that’s the FAFSA. Anyone who’s applied for financial aid to attend a college has probably filled out this form. It’s known mostly by that acronym, but it stands for the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. When the government rolled out the new version of this form in late 2023, there were a lot of problems. Students couldn’t complete the form. That meant that they couldn’t figure out whether they could afford college. It was a major headache for financial aid officers, too. What went wrong here?
James Kvaal Yeah, well, obviously it was a really challenging year. It was very difficult for us and there was a lot of frustration and anxiety from students and families caused by the delays and errors in FAFSA processing. You know, it was a mammoth project for the department. It required us to replace about 20 computer systems that, you know, in some cases were older than the parents filling out the FAFSA. And that underlaid, you know, everything FSA does and really the entire national financial aid system. So there’s a lot of challenges we faced. You know, I think we’re attempting to implement very, very detailed specifications enacted by Congress. The form is much simpler from the perspective of students and families, but still is quite complicated on the back end. And we were doing that, you know, under congressionally set deadlines, under a congressional budget freeze. And a lot of challenges came up along the way. Now, with that said, you know, I am really very grateful to, you know, the college counselors, the financial aid advisers, and everybody who helped students and families get through this year. And our FAFSA support strategy over the summer helped our partners generate 840,000 FAFSA submissions. We actually have more people receiving student aid this fall than did a year ago. And next year’s FAFSA is up and running and has been running well so far. So, you know, really appreciative of everyone who helped us get through this very difficult year.
Jack Stripling Is there a part of you that looks back at this, though, and says, if we’d only done this? I think a lot of people were reminded of the healthcare rollout during the Obama administration — just a huge technical undertaking that didn’t go well. Do you look at this and say, I wish I’d personally done something differently?
James Kvaal I mean, yeah, of course I wish I had known two years ago a lot more about this project. And there are a lot of things that we tried at various points along the way that did not work. I wish I had known ahead of time so that I could have tried something else. But it wasn’t, you know, a lack of attention or a lack of seriousness or, you know, a failure to appreciate how important the FAFSA is to the lives of young people. You know, people were working very, very hard on this project, working...
Jack Stripling When you say you wish you’d known. Are you saying you wish you’d known that there was going to be a problem? Was this just not something that folks higher up in the Education Department were thinking enough about?
James Kvaal No, that’s not the case. I mean, this was one of the very first things I was briefed on when I started my job in the fall of 2021. So there was a lot of attention paid to this issue throughout. One of the things that we have tried to do in the wake of the FAFSA is to strengthen the capacity at FSA to manage very complicated and challenging projects like this one. So we have restructured responsibilities there now. Just as one example the FAFSA team is a separate team reporting directly to the COO. We’ve recruited new senior leadership. We are hiring new IT staff, new staff to better manage our contractors and oversee the progress of our contractors. So there’s a lot of work being done to make sure that you know that we do learn from this experience and it’s not repeated.
Jack Stripling So let me ask you about something Representative Virginia Foxx said about all of this. She has a different theory about why the FAFSA rollout was a problem. She told Inside Higher Ed that the Department of Education failed to manage the FAFSA rollout because people like you were focused on student loan forgiveness. Is there any credence to that argument?
James Kvaal No, I don’t think that’s correct. I mean, there was a lot of high level attention being paid to the FAFSA through the entire project.
Jack Stripling I was thinking before our conversation about your career, and how much you’ve worked on college access issues over the past few decades. You know from experience how important the FAFSA is, particularly for students who may struggle to afford a college education. How do you feel about the idea that some young people may have chosen not to go to college because the government messed this up?
James Kvaal Well, you know, of course, that possibility has been very much on our minds and has caused, you know, a lot of sleepless nights here. You know, we’ve seen FAFSA, overall, we have about 5 percent more students getting financial aid. So, thankfully, some of the worst predictions about the possible impact have been avoided. It is true that there are about 2.5 percent fewer 18 year olds receiving financial aid. So some concerns about the class of 2024. You’ll never know exactly what the role of the FAFSA was. There’s, of course, a lot going on in higher education right now in terms of demographic trends and questions about the value of higher education and changes to admissions policies. But, you know, but I do believe that there are still people out there who need help paying for college and that we have to keep working to make sure that they can get through the FAFSA as quickly, as easily as possible and get that help that they need. And, you know, that’s an ongoing commitment. Last week we put out, you know, another $60 million to help our partners support students through the FAFSA.
Jack Stripling It just seemed like it was something that nobody would have anticipated, would have taken up so much time, energy, emotion, effort. And I was thinking about this last night in preparation for our conversation. I’m sure you’ll disabuse me of this, but, I thought, well, the biggest thing the Biden administration really tried to do was loan forgiveness. And the most aggressive effort in that regard — this $400 billion plan — you know, really got locked up in court. And then you have this FAFSA thing that just, I’m sure, just ate up so many hours of time. I just wonder, does it feel like a missed opportunity to you at all? Does that, is that frustrating to you that two of these big projects ate up a lot of time, it seemed like?
James Kvaal No, I mean, we took a lot of swings. We did a lot of big things. And it’s true that not every single one of them worked. But I think when the dust settles, people are going to look at the enduring changes that we’ve made as, you know, still among the most significant that any administration has done for higher education, between the American Rescue Plan, which helped colleges stay open during the pandemic, helped students stay enrolled; the 5 million people who’ve gotten loan discharges and rising due to the reforms we’ve made to those programs; the accountability provisions that we put in place. And, you know, there’s a lot of other implementation successes behind the hood: We have a new student loan servicing system that’s going to allow us to hold servicers more accountable for the performance that they have in serving borrowers. So I think it’s a you know, it’s a track record to be proud of.
Jack Stripling You know, I don’t know how much the Education Department can change the way people feel about higher education, but that’s something we’ve been thinking about a lot over the last couple of years. You know, we’re seeing just greater frustration across the country with higher education as an enterprise and more Americans questioning whether it’s even worth it. We see this in polling. Is that a troubling trend to you?
James Kvaal Yeah, I mean, I think in a way, it’s a backhanded compliment for higher education because people are feeling a lot of anxiety about the future and are looking for ways to give themselves or give their children the best possible opportunities and look to a college education to provide that. When we fail to deliver because our graduation rates aren’t good enough or our student debt is too high, you know, I think that can be very disillusioning for people. So, you know, I think that we have some work to do to make sure that when we ask someone to take out a loan to go to college, you know, we can say confidently this is going to pay off for you, this is a reliable investment.
Jack Stripling I was a little bit struck, and I think other people were, at how much during this presidential campaign we heard Tim Walz and Kamala Harris and even Barack Obama talk about alternatives to college. I mean, you worked in the Obama administration. You know what a priority going to college was for that president. And I just felt like there was a marked shift in the way Democrats talked about this this year. What do you make of that? What’s happening?
James Kvaal Yeah, well, I think it’s an attempt to better clarify what the agenda is. You know, the reality is this president has laid out a specific vision about the types of investments and industries we need for the coming decades to be secure economically and in terms of national security as well. And in order for us to have thriving manufacturing, semiconductor, clean energy industries, we’re going to need people with post-secondary certificates and associate degrees, as well as people with four-year college degrees and advanced degrees. And those people are going to need to be working side by side. And so President Biden has invested a great deal in creating those kinds of opportunities and wants to make sure that people understand we’re not just talking about four-year college degrees.
Jack Stripling Did you not feel like this is a change of tone or a … I just mean, I again, as somebody who covered the Obama administration, I felt like, wow, are they, are they running away from the idea that college should be for everybody?
James Kvaal Well, you know, I think there’s a there’s a bit of a vocabulary challenge or a perception challenge. President Obama talked about needing, you know, 8 million more college graduates and, you know, explicitly specified that 5 million of those should come from community colleges. And yet he’s still sort of painted as someone who believes that every single person should go to a four-year college. So it’s a little hard, I think, to articulate clearly what we mean when the term college in some people’s minds means four-year, even though, you know, almost half of students go to community colleges.
Jack Stripling The public perception issue that we’re talking about, I think part of that is tied up, as always, in some of these culture war issues that we occasionally see in higher education. We’re seeing this increasingly hostile attitude toward transgender athletes’ participation in college sports. One of the Education Department’s primary roles is holding colleges accountable for protecting students from discrimination. You know, President Biden sought authority to expand transgender protections under Title IX. Now, there’s this sweeping backlash, and I think President Trump is sure to dismantle those protections. He said he’s going to ban all transgender athletes from participating on sports teams that align with their gender identity. Do you think the feds got this right during the past four years?
James Kvaal Yeah. I mean, I think one of the hallmarks of higher education is that it’s open to everyone and that all students should have the same opportunity to learn and to take advantage of the campus environment. And, you know, I’m proud of the steps that the Biden administration has taken to defend students’ civil rights.
Jack Stripling Higher education, as we mentioned, isn’t really enjoying some of the popularity I think it once had. And people are skeptical about it. That seems to be true as well for the Department of Education, at least to hear it from certain politicians. But we just went through this period where I think the federal government did play a big role in higher ed, particularly in the lives of students. And now it feels like maybe we’re headed in a different direction. As somebody who was part of this administration and its approach, which again, I do think was aggressive in what it saw as the power of the government to effect change within higher education, how do you feel about the idea that the pendulum may be swinging?
James Kvaal Well, look, I really believe in higher education and still believe in higher education. And, you know, I think our country’s future depends upon further increasing our educational attainment levels, including more college graduates. I think that those of us who believe in higher education do need to take this moment seriously. And I think there is growing disillusionment on one hand about the problem of student debt and a sense that college may only not fail to pay off but leave you worse off if you attempt it. I think we need to make sure that that is not true. And then, you know, I think colleges and universities are not exempt from some of the debates happening over cultural issues. And, you know, I think it is incumbent on higher education to listen to some of those critiques and to think about whether there are aspects of those critiques that have merit and to think about ways that they can get outside their bubbles and make a case for what they do, not just immediately on campus, but across their communities. I mean, think about, for example, a rural community that sees its young people go off to college and then never return, go on to find jobs and in an urban area. And they may wonder what return they’re getting on their tax dollars and on their young people that are supporting this system. So, you know, I think we have an imperative to make sure that every community understands why we have higher education and the benefits it has for our country as a whole and not just for students themselves and individuals involved in the enterprise.
Jack Stripling Let’s close by looking a little bit into the future here. You mentioned that you believe in higher education. I think the anxiety that I hear from people who work in higher education right now is that there may be people in the incoming administration who don’t, or who at least see a political advantage to disliking higher education or what it stands for or how it conducts its business. There’s a sense that higher ed is in for a bumpy ride. Do you think that’s true?
James Kvaal Well, I think it remains to be seen. You know, I don’t know yet who will be serving in the administration or what their priorities will be. But I do think that there are politicians who on the campaign trail advanced a scathing critique of higher education. And that critique seemed to resonate, at least with some. You know, looking beyond the specific policy proposals or policy fights of the next couple of years, I do think that higher education needs to engage in some reflection about why that was the case and what we can do differently.
Jack Stripling It sounds like you’re nibbling at the idea that there might be some merit to some of these criticisms. Is there something you want to say?
James Kvaal Well, no. I mean, I think that we have to take it seriously. I think there are a lot of people out there that question the value of higher education, that question the values of higher education. You know, as someone who deeply believes in colleges and universities, who thinks it is in our national interest to invest in them, to make them affordable, to encourage more people to go to college and graduate from college, you know, I think we need to get out there and prosecute our case amongst the skeptics as well.
Jack Stripling I’ll look forward to hearing that conversation as it develops over the coming administration. Thank you so much for doing this, Undersecretary Kvaal. I really appreciate it.
James Kvaal Thanks, Jack. Thanks for your time.
Jack Stripling College Matters from The Chronicle is a production of The Chronicle of Higher Education, the nation’s leading independent newsroom covering colleges. If you like the show, please leave us a review or invite a friend to listen. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss an episode. You can find an archive of every episode, all of our show notes, and much more at chronicle.com/collegematters. If you like, drop us a note at collegematters@chronicle.com. We are produced by Rococo Punch. Our podcast artwork is by Catrell Thomas. Special thanks to our colleagues Brock Read, Sarah Brown, Fernanda Zamudio-Suarez, Laura Krantz, Carmen Mendoza, Ron Coddington, Joshua Hatch, and all of the people at The Chronicle who make this show possible. I’m Jack Stripling. Thanks for listening.